System76 Open Source Hotswap Mechanical Keyboard

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43

It looks like they limited the keycaps to 1u, 1.5u, and 2u in order to make them as interchangeable as possible (without going overboard, like one of the all-1u configurations). The point seems to be customizability: not with aftermarket keycaps, in the way that keyboard enthusiasts think of it, but out of the box customizability.

You can swap your ctrl and caps lock without any fuss, for example, because they’re the same size and XDA profile. The board also comes with a bunch of replacement keycaps, so you could replace your backspace with an extra esc key if you wanted to, for some reason. Like a crazy person.

I do agree that they could (should) have taken advantage of the space at the top of the board to separate the F row a little, but the focus of this design is apparently not aesthetics.

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44

I have no Idea whether the things they do outside the keyboard community are good or not, however, it can be clearly seen from the issues of this project, that people that do not know how to keyboard should not just jump in and start designing and selling boards.
Stay around for a while, try to learn first, then make a keyboard.

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45

Unpopular opinion, but I can actually see a value for this keyboard

  • The footprint of the keyboard is considerably small for a 75% (30.9cm in length, while typical 60% is 29cm in length)
  • The bevy of USB ports is very useful for people whose machines/terminals don’t have easily accessible USB ports
  • The shrunk-down modifier keys are more reminiscent of laptop keyboards. For typing and coding purposes, the size of the alphas are much more important (being kept at 1u)
  • The bottom row modifiers are a little reminiscent of the JP layout to me, could be useful, Plus the arrow blocker is a rather thoughtful consideration
  • The keycaps are an enthusiasts’ nightmare, but for someone without any intention to buy aftermarket keycaps, I think this is rather appealing. Plus they’ve packaged a number of extra keycaps
  • The all-metal construction of the case is still something nice

Is this board overpriced? Absolutely. But is it hot garbage, I don’t fully think so. If they’d drop the price to the $150-175 range, I think it would’ve been more popular for their target audience

Everything said, I think the target audience of this keyboard would be better off looking at the Vortex Race 3. It has all the desired features (hardware programmability over QMK, but I think the geeky target audience can figure their way around).

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46

I worked on this keyboard. This response may be negative in tone, but consider that it just matches the hate being thrown around here for a design that we spent a long time working on, and that if you don’t like, you could just not buy it and move on!

Most of the complaints I see center around the layout and the price.

Layout

The layout is specifically designed to minimize changes from the standard layout while introducing several impactful changes that show up on literally no other keyboards. Some mistake this for a lack of research when the exact opposite is true. We experimented heavily with common layouts, including ortholinear, split ortholinear, and staggered. We experimented with the “standard” key sizes, where the left side would line up perfectly, but would also use 1.25, 1.75, and 2.25 size keys. After a ton of prototypes, we arrived at this layout. Our first task was to reduce the number of key sizes, to maximize where keys could be swapped. This led to the left side and right side being uneven, but in a way I think looks good once you actually use the keyboard. We also split the spacebar, to allow both side to be mapped independently, and allow the caps to be swapped with anything else that has a 2U cap. We include tons of extras to ensure most keys can be put most anywhere. Keep in mind, that while enthusiasts don’t care if caps are blank, most users do. This is a keyboard we want any of our customers to be able to use.

Electrical Design

Some absolute idiot suggested we have 5 USB ports as though it was a dumb idea. We do, but one is for connecting to the PC. So we have two USB-A and two USB-C ports on each side of that central connector to the PC, it is balanced and even and sensible. To have a 4-port 10Gbps USB hub inside a keyboard, certain things have to be done with the electrical layout. Trying to make it “pretty” is a mistake. Our layout is designed to maximize the USB lane integrity, critical for any high speed design. The switches themselves operate at extremely low frequency compared. We are talking 10 GHz compared to 1 KHz, several orders of magnitude lower. So, the switch and LED lines are moved around to make substantial room for ground planes and the important USB lines. It was not auto-routed AT ALL, this was done by hand with a careful consideration for high speed design requirements.

Price

Sure, you can have a 75% for less. With a metal chassis, good caps, and good switches you are approaching the Launch price. Throw in an integrated 4-port 10Gbps USB hub, and you won’t find anything else available. Make it not integrated, and you still end up around the price we have for this keyboard. Our costs and profit margins are well researched and match those of other keyboards. If anything, we are in a position to outperform them on price in the future, as we have seen incredible demand for this product from our customers.

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47

Prickly much? This is like a lesson on how not to respond to critics of your products :joy::joy::joy:

Wouldn’t every maker love it if anyone who though their product was hideous just kept it to themselves?

I’m glad you like your creation and that people are buying it. I maintain that it is hideous.

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48

This is like a lesson…

If that’s the case then I’m not sure what this is teaching. This thread was just a bunch of wild speculation about design decisions, it’s certainly nice to have someone come and give actual answers.

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49

You aren’t a critic, you would never buy it in the first place and are only here to have a few laughs. I’m responding with the same tone your previous comments were in. Perhaps that was going to far, but at least you know work was actually done on this keyboard, and the things you are complaining about were researched and intentional. Whether you like it or not, really doesn’t affect me much.

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50

It affects you enough to create an account on a platform you don’t use. I think that says enough about you… lol

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51

Well said bud. Who is this guy?

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52

@Suds I agree it is nice to hear from a designer of the thing. All designs have rationale behind them, it doesn’t make them immune from being the topic of some light hearted comedy. Ask Microsoft… or whoever invited the puck mouse for the OG iMac.

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53

He is probably a nice kid, all creators are sensitive about their babies. He replied directly to my comment so the forum shared his real name with me, but it is not worth the doxxing, nor do I find such behavior to be polite. As he said he is involved with System76 and had some input to the design of this keyboard.

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54

Hmmm. He starts off trying to rip our heads off …

but then he does the exact same thing to this guy. :man_shrugging:

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Jeremy Soller, my name is public info. I am the Principal Engineer at System76, and “some” input is quite the understatement. I’m not a “nice kid.” Comparing this keyboard to the puck mouse is ludicrous. So far, we have yet to have complaints about the layout from anyone who got the keyboard, including reviewers who got it for free, except for the occasional “please add a numpad.” Mostly it has been, “great keyboard, but pricy.” All I want to do is oppose the myths about the design here, before they spread into other forums I actually do care about. It is easy to point out flaws in something from behind an anonymous nick, hard to try to rationalize decisions with no anonymity.

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56

Go away.

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57

Gladly

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58

Everyone, please act civilized.

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59

5 USB ports. Non-standard keycap sizes. Visually unbalanced. These are all rational criticisms and resulted in some laughs.

It is okay for people to laugh about it. It is okay for people to love it if they do.

Homer Simpson put a lot of thought into a car design once (really showing my age with this reference).

1*Y3ZibsBlrVfWspy9HLANPQ

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60

Yes, it is fine to laugh at it. Quite a few comments were far beyond laughing at it and were instead admonishing us for even making this keyboard in the first place. It has 4 downstream USB ports, and one upstream USB port. Not sure what you mean by 5. Keycap sizes are standard for all but about 8 keys, which can still easily be found. I’ve used alternative keycap sets before. Visually balanced - unless it is split ortho it isn’t visually balanced anyways.

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61

Hello Jeremy,

First I would like to thank you for your technical insight on the at first ‘strange’ design decisions you took on your keyboard.
To be honest, not knowing that I previously thought that is was failed attempt of doing something different without no knowledge and research put in it… and I think it has been the case of a good amount of people in this forum.
Now it makes perfect sense.

On the supposedly lack of nice PCB routing, I will be pragmatic by saying ‘if it works it works’.
InputClub PCBs are no known to be nice looking but they do the job pretty well also.

I also really appreciate you made it open source, this will give a very good information source for designers.
I looked at InputClub designs in the past, more recently Gondolindrim PCB designs and I for sure will look into yours in the future.

Now onto the justified criticisms by various people in this forum …
You have to understand that we have very special tastes here :wink:

  1. Old keyboard nostalgia
    A good bunch of people here like high profile designs, like on the old mechs we’ve come to love when we were younger.
    Design simplicity: a keyboard is seen mostly as an input device, adding hub feature may look overkill.

  2. General layout
    Key simmetry play an important role, the borders on your design is not straight and confuse a lot of people here, see nostalgia at 1)
    Not beeing able to easily use our keycaps collection does not help at all.

  3. Aestetics
    Yes, people here love nice looking PCBs even if it does not do anything in term of feature (and is sometimes detrimental to stability).
    The same can be seen for case design with expensive material used like stainless stell or brass, various engravings and so on.

You may also have seen Linus Tech Tips criticism saying it was expensive.

I think you have your place besides the GMMK pro, but with a more geeky spirit.
The GMMK Pro also had a bunch a criticism, it does not make it a bad keyboard in the end.

Please understand that when you are doing something you can’t please everybody, that’s life.
The inputs given here are justified given the audience.
If it does not fit your strategy then just ignore them, no need to fight for a lost cause.
If taking some of these inputs in your next design, it may be more compatible with people expectations in this hobby.

I wish you the best for your keyboard endeavours.

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62

Thanks Rico, I think these points are easier to understand and more constructive. I’d like to look into them a little bit more:

  1. This is a fairly heavy keyboard, with full-size MX switches. We don’t use low-profile switches. If simplicity is important, why should we add more bezels or height to the keyboard unless it is necessary? This is the smallest PCB and chassis we could make that would fit our layout, with full sized switches and per-key RGB, and the USB dock. In fact, there are larger 75% keyboards that do not have the USB dock. So it seems to me that we are following the guide for simplicity, while maintaining the feel of full profile switches and a heavy full metal chassis.

  2. I think in the end this is an unavoidable difference of opinion. There are certainly more drastic keyboard designs that have less compatibility with keycap sets than Launch has. And there are those that are just standard staggered layouts with very little change but dropping the ten-key. There are benefits to both sides of this. Our layout can still be made to fit alternative keycap sets, with only about 8 swaps that need to be made from standard, mostly for the changes to modifier keys and split spacebar.

  3. I’m not sure the PCB looks ugly. This is one where I think some experience in high speed design is required. You can then appreciate the care taken to fit in the 4-port USB 3.2 Gen 2 dock in less space than some keyboards use for their controller.

In the end, I feel this keyboard offers things that simply aren’t there on others, with the milled aluminum chassis, compact size, and integrated USB dock. Sure, others check one box, but few check all. Some may do things we don’t do, like an ortholinear layout. The point is, this keyboard would have far less value if it was simply a clone of the GMMK Pro. Having a design no other keyboard has is what I found interesting about it, I didn’t want System76 to make yet another TKL keyboard, I wanted to make something that could drive people to think about what they want in a keyboard. For example, maybe in the future, more manufacturers are willing to add high speed USB docks?

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