Topre/Nopre for a Boba U4 user

Well, that’s insanely-good value, an offer definitely too hard to pass up.

Yeah, Niz is less tactile than Topre. That’s fine with me, as I don’t need excessive tactility. Niz is more MX-like. Feels kind of like a tactile MX Red or something.

I am currently trying hard to resist the new 35 G Niz full-size keyboard. It probably has just enough weight and tactility to tell you that you are typing, without making an awful racket.

The PBT keycaps, though, I am skeptical of. I think they often use-pad printing with Niz, and the quality of the new double-shots may be spotty. I have to think about replacement keycaps, but that will be an unpleasant exercise if the stabilizers are co-star.

That’s true, the bottom out for Niz is rather soft and “lacking in tactility” in a sense. I actually think they’re more similar to Aliaz than MX Reds, the tactile bump is light but still perceptible.

Wow the full-sized 35G Niz would be an experience! Furthermore, the sound is rather low-pitched, which I think ends up being less annoying to others, even if the actual decibels are higher (louder). Becomes white noise after a while.

On closer inspection of the keycaps, I think they’re most likely pad printed

Also, on a side note, ApiaryKeyboards had a good video that demonstrated the differences between top quality and subpar doubleshot keycaps. Having a different color plastic on the underside of a keycap doesn’t seem to be equal to a “true” doubleshot quality

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSJqcGjpc/

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I’m totally open to being wrong here, but her clone there appears to be Dye-sub, not double-shot.

image

I’m not too sure myself. I thought it was quite similar to Akko Neon keycaps which are being lauded as PBT doubleshot. Perhaps the standard for what counts as “doubleshot” is rather varied :slight_smile:

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Yeah, I’ve got some double-shot “clones” that are really high quality. I’d expect them to perform at least as well as the “originals”.

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My ABKO uses what look like the same as the keycaps in the close-up.

I believe that to be pad-printing. Makes me think about replacement keycaps.

During testing, I found that generic AliExpress PBT Cherry-profile keycaps are among the best you can use. Sound pretty deep. EnjoyPBT was okay, but maybe a bit more hollow. GMK was terrible.

Essentially, the stock keycaps provided the best sound characteristics. Which is unfortunate, because the legends will wear. Maybe MT3 is a solution.

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Oh! That’s a very interesting and surprising observation, hearing that the generic PBT keycaps are preferable to use with the EC switches compared to EnjoyPBT and GMK offerings. Perhaps it’s due to the EC switches having a deeper sound profile than MX switches. I could see how taller keycaps like MT3, SA or MG (supposed Topre Hi-Pro clones) would play better for the sound

This is quite different from my experience with Boba U4 and Aliaz silent tactiles. They felt less affected by keycaps, with the Boba U4 taking well to both Cherry and SA profiles, while Aliaz performed poorly with SA

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I feel the opposite. I have used Holy panda, zealios, 45g topre(HHKB type-s). Topre’s tactility is much closer to HP, more rounder and less sharp than zealios. I used to have boba u4, and if I remember correct, their tactility is similar to zealios. Compared to zealios, stock topre feel much more linear. If you want a lot of tactility on a topre broad, you will need to buy domes from BKE or Deskey. That being said, topre have a unique soft bottom out feel that many people enjoy.

Yes, I made some OUTEMU Silent Sky variants and mainly use Cherry PBT with them, but MT3 also worked surprisingly well, and was almost as quiet.

As far as the Niz switches, yeah, I extensively tested all sorts of keycaps with my ABKO as an intended follow-up section to a review I wrote. I was really hoping that something would be as good or better than factory keycaps.

But it looks as if the thickness and profile of the factory keycaps were chosen at least in part to optimize sound. They may have tested keycaps until they found out the optimal sound characteristics - these keycaps seem to have a somewhat custom sculpt. Nothing I have works as well from a sound standpoint.


@linch you are probably right. It has been a while since I typed on Topre. I always found U4 Boba to have some tactile characteristics similar to my 45 G Niz board, and so do some others, but I never was able to directly compare Topre and U4.

I have heard of someone modifying U4 Boba to feel more like Topre. These ‘Topre-mod’ switches are apparently for sale somewhere.

Pleasantly surprised to hear that MT3 works well too - seems like most people have nothing but praise for the profile. I would’ve thought that the higher profile MT3 keycaps would amplify the switch sound, hearing that it’s almost as quiet is something nice. Plus I suppose the aggressively scooped surfaces must make for a nice typing experience.

Nice to see that you’ve tested extensively with the ABKO and Niz switches! And in terms of the factory keycaps, I suppose they might have optimized for “thickness” as opposed to “sound”, since keycap thickness can be taken as a shorthand for quality (thicker == better). And this decision might turn out impacting the sound. Was thinking along these lines as designing for sound seems like a much harder task (what metrics are used in the assembly line?) than designing for thickness (keycap should be >= x thickness)

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Certainly, it feels as if all the effort went into producing thick PBT keycaps for the Niz. It wasn’t going into durable legends!

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Friend of mine loaned me his HHKB so I guess things have come full circle :slight_smile:

It’s quite a heavily modified HHKB:

  • BKE redux domes (supposedly increases the tactility)
  • Silencing rings and lubed sliders
  • Hasu bluetooth controller
  • EC 9009 keycaps

To answer my own queries (and to anyone who happens to read and wanted to know):

Is there any significant difference/improvement between Boba U4 and Topre?

The feel of Topre is definitely distinct from Boba U4. It could be due to the BKE redux domes, but Topre’s tactility feels sharper/snappier than Boba U4, yet maintains that “roundness” in terms of having a uniform tactile event across the entire keystroke (as opposed to “P” shaped bumps with pre/post-travel).

Is this difference considered an improvement over Boba U4? In my humble and limited opinion, I do not think so. I can understand how the tactility of Topre can’t really be replicated by MX switches, fundamentally due to the different actuating mechanism (collapsing rubber dome vs piston movement of MX stem). On one hand, it is true that Topre does indeed have more smoothness, tactility, sharpness and roundness.

But I feel that there’s a disadvantage that I’ve not heard about as much – if not actuated right, I can just about make out the “spring ping” of the underlying conical spring. My fingers can feel the underlying springs in a way that MX switches just never gave to me before. There’s a bit of that “twang” on the upstroke as well. This “spring ping” is something that was also present in the Niz that I have. Another friend of mine told me this could be due to insufficient lubing or the effect of mods (apparently Topre doesn’t take too well to opening and closing cases), but to me this feels like quite a huge negative.

Are Topre boards worth the price premium over Nopre boards?

Now that I have both the HHKB Pro 2 and Niz Nano75 on-hand, I will have to cop out with the dreaded “it depends” answer.

Topre and Nopre feel distinct enough such that one does not substitute the other

Topre (45g) Nopre (45g)
Tactility Sharper and rounder, each keystroke feels confident Very soft with a light tactile touch – feels almost linear (in a good way)
Smoothness Not a hint of scratchiness or resistance in the downstroke and upstroke On par with Topre, but there’s almost a slight “wetness” to it
Sound Silenced sounds really nice with clean thuds on the downstroke. Unsilenced makes a hell of a clank on the upstroke Very nice and quiet all around, with an almost “wet” sound on the upstroke. It can be a little soothing in some way

How silent are stock Topre over the Boba U4? What about Topre type-S?

Stock Topre is not silent at all. The HHKB I’m using does not have the spacebar silenced, and boy is it LOUD. It’s loud to the extent that I feel embarrassed to hit the spacebar during open-mic calls.

I don’t have a genuine type-S to compare against, but with the silencing rings mod, the Topre switch does have a similar level of loudness compared to Boba U4.

In my experience with silent tactiles, this is how I would rank their level of quietness:

Ranking Switch
1 Aliaz
2 Apple Magic keyboard (membrane)
3 Niz/Nopre
4 Topre silenced, Boba U4
6 Zilents
7 Gateron Silent Browns
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i am also using bobas (u4, u4t) and in past few months bought an hhkb 44g and realforce r2 55g… stock realforce topre is much quieter than the stock hhkb topre, i felt like i could get away with the realforce in office without need for silencing rings. but still, stock bobas quieter than the stock realforce topre

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Thanks, @milneraj, that was incredibly accurate.

I’ve used most of the switches under discussion, and I would rank them almost the same.

In terms of Topre vs. Nopre, the feel and sound differences are exactly as you describe. I would say that my experience with Nopre [ABKO] is that it is a little louder than U4 or Silent Topre. I don’t consider Niz to be ‘silent.’ It sounds like boiling water when you type. Fortunately, it is not obnoxious.

I prefer lubed Silent Topre to stock Niz in terms of quietness and probably feel, but I prefer stock Niz to stock Topre in both. Niz really is almost linear [a consistently tactile linear on the downstroke] and less ‘in-your-face’ than stock unsilenced Topre. You’re right about the ‘wetness’ of Nopre too.

Ultimately, like you, I believe that MX-type mechanisms are superior for typing. I believe that they offer greater precision in terms of locating the tactile event while typing, so that you don’t have to bottom-out. When I typed a review of my ABKO keyboard, I typed the draft on the AKBO, but ultimately typed the final version on Kailh Pro Purples, because they were more precise.

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I concur with your sentiments! I think that beyond the loudness of the keyboard, the pitch is also important. There shouldn’t be much problems with stock Topre in the office environment since the sound tends to be of a lower pitch and easier to drown out. My office has a couple of Cherry Brown users and no one has issues with it

It seems like Gazzew has really nailed the silent tactile experience with the Boba U4, and arguably the tactiles too with U4T (though, there are many more variations for tactiles)

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Great to hear that! I personally enjoy silent switches the most, so it’s nice hearing this from you too

I love your description of it - “boiling water”. Very apt for what it sounds and feels like, the closest I got to was “wetness” haha! I’ll be using your descriptor from now on

In terms of the silence comparison, I suppose I should try the Boba U4s head to head against the Niz again. I could be mistaken about the relative silence due to recency bias (I’ve sold my U4s a while ago). Then again, I doubt that the Niz/Nopre switches were ever branded as Silent™ switches unlike the others in comparison.

I suppose the innovation in the MX space has really caught up, such that an excellent and precise typing experience can be enjoyed. Nice to hear that you ended up using Kailh Pro Purples - now that’s a switch I don’t hear as much about, but sounds lovely to try out!

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Yes, some people think that the ABKO is actually the nicest-sounding EC out-of-the-box, and it’s easy to see why. It doesn’t require any modding and it gives you this comforting sound while typing.

The ‘wetness’ also extends to Nopre feel for me, since it’s more luscious and drawn-out than MX light-tactiles.

Niz is sometimes labelled as ‘quiet,’ but not usually ‘silent.’ Yeah, it’s been about 6 months since I tried U4 and Niz head-to-head, so I can’t remember the sound comparison. U4 is known for being one of the quieter silent tactiles, though.

It’s funny with the Kailh Pro Purples. They’re not a terribly well-known switch, and were seen when they came out as ‘scratchy Zealios.’ But basically they’re an MX Brown or Ergo-Clear-sized bump, and it’s near the top with minimal pre-travel. So it’s just a top-oriented Cherry tactile in some respects. But it has a really long post-travel, and the spring may become heavier towards the bottom, so it’s easier to avoid bottom-out. Interesting spring. A number of people have set their personal speed records using this switch.

It’s a candidate for modding, since it is usually scratchy in stock form. A ~2018 switch, it doesn’t benefit from the housing and material improvements that modern switches have. I’ve found you can create a gentler version using 63.5 G Spirit springs. Other people like to use thin oils to lube it. Hard to figure out exactly how to optimize this switch.

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these switches interested me, but now I’m more interested

Indeed, I can relate to what you mean about how the ABKO sounds and feels nice to type with. I too find that my Niz has a distinct sound and feel compared to Boba U4, Aliaz and Topre silenced. True about the Nopre being quiet as opposed to silenced. Glad to see that you’re enjoying the use of your ABKO and getting lots of mileage from it!

I think the magic of the Boba U4 comes from the U4 stem. It has a very nice tactile, rounded bump and it’s silenced without feeling too mushy. The boba housings are nice but didn’t feel too much of a game changer to me (I didn’t find any perceived difference using U4 stems in Outemu Ice housings). I also preferred the U4 stem compared to the U4T’s long pole stem due to the longer travel distance.

Nice to hear about the Kailh Pro Purples! The description you gave sounds very similar to the Outemu Ice Purples (which I used extensively before replacing the stems with U4s - during Gazzew’s first GB for the stems). The description does sound very unique and distinct from the typical tactile switch of today. Sounds like quite a fun switch to type with as well, since it has “built-in mechanisms” to avoid bottoming out

I tend to be a little cautious when lubing tactiles, as the tactile event is something I find to be very important. Perhaps some spring lubing or donut dip lubing might be good for it? And just a light coat of a thin lube on the housings/stem to reduce the scratchiness

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For sure I lube the springs on the Pro Purples. It’s a very lube-starved switch.

Pro Purple doesn’t have much of a tactile event to begin with, and rumors are that the legs(!) are factory-lubed. The barrier is meant to be quickly overcome, but there needs to be some decent spring force behind it.

The factory spring may be somewhat progressive or something like that - certainly the aftermarket springs make the switch feel noticeably different. I have to use heavier springs than I am used to for the switch to make sense.


The secret of the Boba housing is that it is very stable, thanks to the tight-top. But it’s not just that - the tactile leaf is very strong. Probably stronger than the ICE housings. But even if it’s not, the Boba leaf is quieter. ICE has a risk of leaf noise that is greater than Boba.

Boba housings are just tight, relatively quiet housings with good thock that are also pretty smooth from factory. So you avoid the need for significant lubing. You can follow your lube protocol better with these, taking a minimalistic approach.

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