I ultimately went with Gateron Milky Browns (non CAP) since they’re much more in my price range compared to the other alternatives at this point in time. I’ve also changed my mind and I’ll be looking to at least lube them. I saw a typing test and they sound amazing lubed in a KBD75 with an aluminum plate. I know I won’t have that exact build, but hopefully with some mods I can get close with my MK870. In the future I’ll definitely look to try other light tactiles you mentioned.
Side question, do you have any recommendations for some budget, decent value keycaps for the light tactiles? This is my first build and I want to get the most bang for my buck without breaking the bank. Thinking maybe around $50 at most?
Well, you’re not alone in going with the Milky Browns. As I said, someone who lubes a great deal was impressed by the Milky Browns. So I’m not sure of a compelling reason to get Golden Browns. If you handlube either, you’ll get the best results.
CAP Browns really are close to light 62-65 [14mm] Ergo Clears, so you might want to give those a try at some point. They are easy to lube once you know what you are doing, and take well to it. Hard getting MX Clears right now, and you’d want to go for pre-Hyperglide, though.
I have to say that CAP Golden Browns [and likely Milky Browns] can be made to sound very good in any decent modded board using decent keycaps.
With cheap keycaps, you want something that isn’t going to screw you over. There are some sub-50 keycap sets on AliExpress, clones of GMK for instance, but many of them have crooked spacebars and other problems.
So what can you buy that is reliable?
One recommendation is Artifact Bloom keycaps, which you can look up on this forum. Their “vintage” set, for instance, is $39 + shipping.
I have that set and some nice teal accents. The keycaps appear to be consistent and orderly. Spacebar is surprisingly-straight. Nothing really wrong with them. However, the tops scratch easily. Their downside is that the surface texture is very smooth, maybe like worn-in ABS [although I wouldn’t say that].
I found that those keycaps are best with clicky switches, but maybe too slippery for other types.
Then, you should look up AKKO. They have something called ASA profile, which is probably a giant OEM hi-profile [and a weird low-profile.] Keycaps typically range $50-60 + shipping. They have some OEM and Cherry keycaps in the same price range.
I don’t know AKKO first-hand. But I suspect the keys are consistent. Legends are a bit ugly to some, especially in the non-vibrant colourways.
DOMIKEY used to make SA profile and still does, but they’ve branched into Cherry profile. Should be pretty decent quality, maybe best at price-point. You can mix-and-match what you need from some vendors, hopefully you can get what you need under $60:
Tai Hao makes a profile called Cubic, which is basically Cherry at OEM height, I think. It’s squarish. Supposedly they are pretty decent and nothing really wrong with them. Limited colourways, though.
If you aren’t just looking for Cherry-profile, then there are some affordable [actually really cheap sometimes] copies of XDA profile called ZDA profile. Look up both those profiles on AliExpress. That profile isn’t for me, but I have the Matcha PBT set, and the quality is very good. Was like $33 for a full set of perfect keycaps.
There’s a Winter Sale on AliExpress right now, so you could look up AKKO, DOMIKEY, XDA, ZDA, and maybe Cubic profile there.
Also, and this is a different approach, but you might want to look for people selling Leopold PBT keycaps on r/mechmarket.
Leopold makes some of the best PBT double-shots on the market, and they are only available with their keyboards. Some people buy the keyboards just for the keycaps. Others use different keycaps, and sell their Leopold PBT.
Normally, I estimate Leopold PBT would probably sell for $70-90 on its own, if they were offered as commodity sets at a place like Novelkeys. But in the used market, they are often much cheaper, like $35-50.
If you can find dirt-cheap Leopold PBT keycaps [destination board would have to be a standard TKL or full-size ANSI design, tho], they are practically indestructible so you could order them regardless of use.
I just wanted to add to what I was saying about affordable keycaps.
There are some AKKO sets on sale during an Aliexpress Winter Sale right now where you can get a set of PBT keycaps for $56 CAD delivered. That’s Canadian dollars, so I’m talking $45 USD, maybe.
I own a set of AKKO, 9009 Cherry profile. They are okay, but not great. Excessively nice packaging, good plastic, smoother than most PBT caps (but not as smooth as Artifact Bloom), but bad kerning and inconsistencies in line thickness. Buy them only if you don’t care about the legends shape all that much. I’d say Artifact Bloom is a better set overall.
I agree about the legends - it is the most common complaint.
I wouldn’t normally consider the AKKO, as legends are inferior to Artifact Bloom, but I have an ABKO K935P, a Niz dome. The ‘Muted’ set is a quick way to get ‘PBT Muted’ keycaps onto the Niz domes.
So I’m seriously considering it, as it’s about $52 CAD shipped right now.
I think you know this, but just in case — Cherry profile keycaps may not fit on K935P because of the stabilizers. I used to own this keyboard and I remember at least some of my keycap sets did not fit.
Thanks to the CoStar stabilizers, it’s uncertain if all keycaps will fit. But the ABKO uses a form of modified Cherry profile, so it might work.
I tested it by adding some recent ePBT keycaps, including a spacebar. The ePBT spacebar actually works fairly well on the ABKO. I might just leave it like that, but it seems to be working with a Cherry-profile spacebar…
Thanks for the detailed and comprehensive recommendation on keycaps from a few weeks ago, really appreciate it. I looked into all of them and did a ton of more research and soul-searching (I feel like keycaps are definitely the hardest part of a build). I ended up going for some Akko PBT WoB in ASA profile. A bit pricier than I wanted to spend but hopefully worth it. As a person new to the hobby, I’m still shocked that GMK keycaps cost so much, take so long to be delivered, get re-sold at sky high prices, and are essentially never sold as an in-stock product (with Drop collabs being one of the few exceptions).
All of my parts arrived this week, including the Milky browns. I was going to lube them before using them for the first time, but I came across some discussion regarding “breaking in switches.” I understand that the process somewhat varies depending on switch type (and possibly a few other variables I’m not aware of). Do y’all have any advice regarding breaking in these Milky browns? Is it really necessary?
There is some truth in breaking in switches at least in my experience, though the difference wouldn’t be huge.
I personally don’t mind using switches stock and too lazy to lube, on decent switches the difference might not be noticeble (when smooth enough), but when I used awful switches for a while I definitly felt they got just a tiny better (mainly getting less awful) after a month or two of avreage usage (though avreage doesn’t mean much).
This might be significat for switches such as the Creams or Cherrys that are pretty gritty initially, but I personally don’t have any experience.
It’s interesting that you would pick AKKO right now. I ordered some AKKO PBT for the first time a few weeks ago - mine should be arriving soon. Mine are Cherry-profile, though.
I’m going to put them on an ABKO K935P, which is a Niz dome keyboard. The stock keycaps have pad-printed legends, and I’ve been wanting to replace them with a PBT muted set. I think AKKO keycaps will be consistent enough, but their legends are kind of off.
The price of GMK keycaps still stuns people, and there are many discussions of it ongoing. Here’s one of them:
Agreed that keyboard customization would be a much more easygoing and carefree process if quality keycaps were like $20 like they should be. There are reasons [elucidated somewhat in the above thread] why GMK is as expensive as it is.
Seems like quality (custom) keycaps have a minimum price floor. GMK quality is going downhill. Maybe we’ll see quality convergence with Chinese ABS manufacturers [hopefully not price convergence].
Re: breaking-in CAP Milky Browns
In my limited experience so far with these switches, it seems they are not meant for customization. CAP Browns are supposed to work OK out-of-the-box. Supposed to be just a sort of drop-in switch.
CAP Browns seem to use a non-standard stem and spring design. Consequently, it may be more difficult to adjust the weight, for example. They are also heavily-lubed with a special design for containing lube. So they’re not really supposed to be hand-lubed in the aftermarket, I think.
So basically, you’re not really supposed to do anything with them. But if you are going to hand-lube them [one of my batched is hand-lube], I’m not sure how useful a break-in period would be. It makes a lot of sense with naturally-scratchy sawtooth switches like what Cherry produces. In fact, the ‘manual’ for making Ergo Clears from MX Clears essentially says to break-in the Clears for about one-month before lubing.
But since CAP Brown are built smoother and factory-lubed, I’m not sure it’s the same. The break-in is supposed to naturally-wear and smooth out the actual friction contact-points before lubing, so that the lubing more closely reflects and enhances the natural operation of the switch. It works really, really well with vintage Clears and vintage Ergo Clears.
But it seems that there will be less natural-friction smoothing with CAP Brown, given the lube and smoothness. OTOH they do resemble MX Clears a good deal in their bump-profile, so maybe the break-in treatment is useful. I would suspect, though, that the break-in would be less useful with CAP Brown than it is with Ergo Clears. I think CAP Brown will just smooth out from actual lubed usage.
Appreciate your thoughtful reply and advice here. I really do hope in the long run we get more high quality GMK alternatives at reasonable prices and delivery in a reasonable timeframe. Hopefully this will result in a more accessible hobby for all.
The gateron milky browns I got are from here. I don’t think those are CAP milky browns, but I get the feeling that your advice would apply to them just the same. They do come factory lubed, but the product description does recommend additional hand-lubing.
I see your point about how if I’m going to hand lube them anyway, a break-in period wouldn’t result in a lot of value added. But after considering everything, I think I will try breaking them in regardless. I’ll use them as my daily driver for a few weeks to break them in (I’m pretty much on the computer for 14hrs a day). I guess the way I see it, I’m in no hurry to finish the build, so the cost of breaking in is low for me—with the added bonus that I get to put off the task of hand-lubing them just a bit longer. I’m also itching to just assemble the board and get to using it.
Oh, ok. I missed that they were regular Milky Brown instead of CAP Brown. I have CAP Brown on my mind right now.
The long-and-short of it is that breaking-in before lubing will have some helpful effect on your switches, however marginal.
Gateron are known to be smoother than Cherry. Cherry benefits a lot from break-in because they are rough. Really good to break-in Clears before lubing, for example.
Since your switches are regular Milky Brown, they aren’t lubed as much as CAP Brown, and so will benefit from careful lubing after break-in. [Even though break-in may yield less than with Cherry].
Presumably, you have a hot-swap or some means of breaking them in.
I do not believe in breaking in switches. I doubt it exists. First, I never felt the effect on my own new keyboards. But also consider this: how often you press, let’s say, Scroll Lock? Only accidentally or to check what color the LED is. So it’s going to stay not broken in indefinitely, or, at least, it would take a very long time to break it in. If breaking in was a thing, then keys on used keyboards would feel very different between most and least used keys. I tried many used keyboards and I can’t say there is a difference.
If you break-in a switch for a month, then you “should” naturally wear away where your typing creates contact points.
This wear will serve as a natural guide for your lubing - you will be smoothing and streamlining where you have created channels for smoothing.
That seems to be the idea, AFAIK. As opposed to just slapping on lube on an un-worn switch where you haven’t created any typing wear.
I’ve tried MX Clears and Ergo Clears that were lubed after a break-in period, and they were very good. But those are Cherry switches we’re talking about. I’m not sure how much Gaterons would benefit, but it wouldn’t hurt, I guess.
I agree that breaking in switches may benefit lubing for certain type of switches. I just don’t believe in breaking in in general. Every other reviewer says something like “these switches are good, but they will be great after breaking in”. I simply do not feel the phenomenon myself, but people just assume that “breaking in” is a thing for every switch.
Great discussion and insights, especially @HungerMechanic. I’m currently evaluating V2 cap golden brown vs. pro brown and waiting for V2 cap crystal browns to arrive.
The golden has flipped the post/tube structure, putting the tube on the stem and the post in the bottom case, which is really just a thinner tube closed on one end with a hole in it.
The tube on the stem is a significant diameter so the golden has a wider diameter spring. It’s a kinda freaky unique switch, a switch you cannot franken-switch with different stems or lower casings. And swapping in springs seem to be hit/miss. Some of mine aren’t large enough diameter and some coils fully compress before bottom out.
The golden’s unique air-escape hole that lets air in & out of the bottom case during switch operation impacts the sound, especially on return “clack” as the stem slams into the upper case, something others describe as a “deeper” sound. I hear it as a quieter return clack.
I’ve been comparing tactility, and though operation force (whatever that is) is the same, the larger tactile bump has to compress the clip more, so activation feels like it takes more effort to get past the bump, which makes falloff feel greater as well. Maybe that’s what comes with greater tactility.
I’ll skip the other details (lube, clip & spring sound, tactile legs, etc) and summarize that the V2 cap golden feels more tactile (larger bump), seems to bottom out less and has more return velocity (likely features of the longer spring), and is quieter on return because of it’s design, making for a quieter switch overall. These are subtle but noticeable differences.
Golden vs. Pro comes down to the golden’s overall tactility and typing effort, with more tactility and slightly more typing effort, noticeable even with thicker PBT keycaps.
I may eventually like that about the golden, but for now after some hours comparing, I tend to prefer the lower effort and more gentle tactility and fall-off of the pro brown. If there was a progressive spring that preserved what I like about the pro while reducing bottom out, that would be nice.
I’ll keep comparing as I wait for V2 cap crystal browns to arrive. I have a feeling I’ll end up on pro browns with that nice cap crystal top case swapped in.
Great post! Thanks for the detailed thoughts, solo-act. I will examine them.
I have my own subjective impressions of the CAP Golden and Milky Browns after using them for several months.
After some medium-term use, I can’t say I am pleased with them. I would say that they are an aggressively mediocre switch.
I say that because the sound-profile, while resembling somewhat that of hand-lubed switches, is also still inconsistent. There are squeaks and swishing noises. They are especially noticeable with the stock Milky Brown in a Rakk Lam Ang Pro. So while they don’t sound as bad as something like stock hyperglide Browns in a pre-built case [or similar], they don’t sound as good as lubed Ergo Clears or Pandas and such.
It’s this banal kind of ‘clop-y’ sound. It’s not scratch, but it’s not pure thock either.
In terms of the tactile profile of the switch, which is more important to me, I also am not satisfied. It looks like Gateron wanted to go with user suggestions and implement a tactile bump that’s larger, more noticeable and crisper than MX/Gateron Brown. And they largely succeeded in this regard.
Unfortunately, there is only a rapid collapse after the larger tactile bump, then it’s bottom-out city. They probably should have investigated a progressive or slow-spring solution as you see with Kailh Pro Purple or some more exotic switches. As it is, the spring then has to push up through that crisp tactile bump again. Some people have resorted to using Long springs to soften the tactility at the top and maybe provide a greater return force through the bump.
So I would say that there is a disconnect between the bump profile, and the spring that is used. They should have investigated other options. My CAP Browns feel a lot like 62-65 G Ergo Clears, but the latter doesn’t slam down as hard. [They both might have mild return issues, though].
CAP Browns also use non-standard parts and springs. So they will be more inconvenient to mod. This all suggests to me, as I wrote earlier, that CAP Browns are ideal for people who just want to stick their CAP Browns into a board and get on with things. Not for modders.
I have CAP Golden Browns in an MK870 with a polycarb plate, and it turns out it’s a great gaming board. The polycarb plate softens the action somewhat, and provides a more resonant sound. I had been aiming for a typing board, I’ve only used it for light testing. It’s a great setup for gaming overall, so I think I will gift it to a friend. But it lacks the subtlety I prefer in light tactiles, the kind that allows you ryhthmically to glide across keycaps without heavy bottom-out.
Your analysis appears to be more objective, less subjective, more analytical and detailed. So I will think about what you have to say about the switches. I think they are a reasonably successful mass-produced tactile with some enthusiast characteristics. Kind of like how you see enthusiast features creeping into mass-production boards.
Thanks again for your careful assessment of the CAP Brown. I have read it, and have some thoughts on it.
I agree with your depiction of the structure of CAP Browns. It looks to me like Gateron has the resources to try and re-engineer the MX design, trying to create a ‘better mousetrap.’
This would be expensive to do for small batches, but it’s my understanding CAP switches have giant automated assembly lines. It’s potentially very cheap for Gateron to produce these, maybe with good consistency too. They can create a ready-made tactile cheaper than Cherry.
I don’t entirely agree that the air-escape hole necessarily makes the switch quieter. With my stock Milky Browns especially, I think there is a popping or escaping-air noise at times. I’m not sure if these are V1 or V2, though. The return clack is deeper, as you say.
The spring isn’t as “long” in its actuation as some people would like. I understand that Gateron took a risk using a long spring in a light tactile. If it’s indeed 55 G, it must be a long spring. But the spring still isn’t doing what a lot of people want it to do, which might involve greater strength at the top and / or bottom.
[I know that I wrote that the fall-off after actuation seems too speedy, which goes against your observation that the spring is more powerful than other Gateron springs. This may be the case, I’m not contesting that.
Rather, I’m saying that I personally wish that the force after actuation was even greater, to make bottom-out even more difficult, and the upstroke even stronger. It feels too “empty” after the bump - which is larger than other Gateron Brown-types.]
Very interested in your thoughts on the Crystal Brown. There had been discussion here about it, but I haven’t heard much from users. I agree that CAP Brown is a higher-effort, higher-tactility switch, which is again why I think their enhancements to the spring may not have been enough.]
I received a question about CAP Brown V2 vs. Pro Brown on another forum, and wondered if you or anyone has any further thoughts on the two.
You seemed to indicate a preference for Pro Brown, being a gentler switch. I think that’s still the case with CAP Brown V2. But could you tell me if your opinions changed at all with the introduction of the V2 wrt any other characteristics of the switch?