I'm new here, and have fallen down the rabbit hole

[seapr6]

Hi everyone, I haven’t used a mech keeb in years. And I’ve never delved into customizing one to reach my own idea of typing nirvana, but about six months ago my ancient MacBook started giving up the ghost, and I decided to give an M4 iPad Pro a try as a replacement. I bought an ESR RGB keyboard for it. A few months later and I finally had enough of the usual things we put up with when buying normie keyboards. I’m going insane in the “membrane” and am determined to fix that.

I’ve only got a couple months of learning the basics of keyboard form factors, switches, and keycaps. I’m pretty sure I’m going for a dygma defi keyboard, and pretty sure about starting off with tactile switches (I’m 60 and learned to type on a Royal manual typewriter while in my teens, and have been very heavy handed ever since).

What made me seek out this forum was in trying to choose my first keycaps. My biggest complaint about this rgb membrane keyboard I’m on now is that the light around all the edges is very bright, much more so than through the legends. I need that reversed. Even better would be to have no light around the edges of the keys (I find it distracting) and all of it through very large, centered legends (I need to easily find shortcuts and media keys in the dark). I’m amazed at how difficult that is to find, so far, and thought I’d see what the experts might have up their sleeves as a solution. Any ideas would be very much appreciated.

As hard as it is to find those need to have elements I described above (vintage looking large and centered shine through legends), my perfect keycaps would also be high profile and spherical to sink my fingers into, with the shiny 1970s IBM look. I saw a set by MiTo that is all those things, but they don’t seem to be shine through legends, which is a must for my use case.

If my ideal keycaps don’t exist, it’d still be nice to meet some of you fine people. I don’t see myself crawling out of this rabbit hole anytime soon, not that I’d want to.

I

[Deadeye]

First, hello and welcome! Always happy to see a new name around these parts.

As for your keycap search, I do think it will come down to choosing which priorities matter most for you; as far as I’m aware, that ideal doesn’t exist - at least not yet. You definitely aren’t the first to be looking for that same set of factors, but I don’t believe anyone has made caps that fully fit that description.

The rubs:

• Large, centered legends: This is a rarity in backlit keycaps, but not completely unheard-of. That said, it pretty much only exists outside of the MX-compatible landscape thanks to the MX mounting stem being in the center of the cap and being harder to pipe light through. (The overwhelming majority of aftermarket switches and keycaps fall into the MX-compatible category.) The only backlit caps I know of that have large, centered legends and still perform their function well are those found on keyboards that use Omron’s B3K switches, more popularly known as Logitech “Romer-G” switches.
  
  As far as I can tell, these have been phased-out of Logitech’s lineup and will only be readily available on slightly older keyboards. The plus side of these switches is that they have basically unmatched lighting performance and can effectively pipe light right through the center of a keycap. The downside is that the mounts are very fragile, switch choices are limited to the few models made by Omron, and keycap choices are basically non-existent, limited to what comes with the keyboard - and none of those options are spherical or anything resembling retro styling.

• Tall & spherical: To my knowledge, no one is currently making backlit keycaps that are both tall and spherical, outside of some really cheap ones on Amazon that I can’t recommend - those all have small, thin letters at the top of the cap - and more importantly, aren’t decent quality. In general, spherical shine-through caps are exceedingly rare if they exist at all, and the vanishingly few I’ve seen are poor quality. A certain vendor teased some medium-height, center-legend shine-through caps a few years ago, but they never came to fruition and that vendor is now out of business.

• Light around the edges: While fairly hard to avoid, this is one factor you actually can do something about. While the very best at avoiding this are the Romer-G keyboards I mentioned above, having a black, matte-finish switch plate will go a long way towards reducing the light that shows around the keycaps. If your keyboard of choice doesn’t come with one or if one isn’t available on the aftermarket, matte-black spraypaint or contact vinyl is always an option!
  
  I can’t quite tell what finish the black Dygmas have, but it looks like it might be black anodized brushed aluminum, which will have some amount of reflection, if less than the typical “gaming” backlit keyboard that has a glossy or metallic switch plate. If you get the keyboard and find there’s still too much light bleed, consider applying matte-black paint or vinyl to the surface of the plate.
  
  Another thing you can do to help mitigate light bleed is to use switches with opaque housings but that include light-pipes or at least windows for the LEDs. Most switches meant for back-lighting will have the whole housing clear, but some just have a clear portion directly above the LED while the rest is opaque. A handful of manufacturers do this but the one that sticks out in my mind is TTC. Aside about switches: I’ll also mention that if you’re used to typewriters, a heavy spring will be helpful in addition to the tactile switch type. Most switches are sold with a gram-force weighting, usually just shown with a number next to a lowercase “g”; I’d recommend something well above 50g for you. If you get a set and find them too light, swapping-in heavier springs is always an option!

Possible compromises based on priorities:

• Tall, spherical, centered: If this is more important than actually being directly luminous, a possible option would be Signature Plastics’ Blackest Black keyset paired with a UV desk light of some kind. They aren’t shine-through, but the legends are made of a reactive plastic that glows under UV light (like a blacklight). The legends are large and centered, and the keyshape is in SA profile - a genuine throwback to retro computing that is both tall and spherically-topped. There’s an additional consideration I’ll mention in the last bullet-point below.

• Back-lit: If true back-lighting is more important, I think you’re mostly limited to OEM profile, sometimes Cherry (which is similar). Most of these will have the lettering at the top-center of the top face, but some have them at the top-center of the front face. There are generally two kinds; laser-etched (which come with the Dygma) and double-shot. The latter are generally better in that they last longer and usually have a better texture, but they also usually don’t shine as brightly - so if luminescence is the main priority, you might actually be better off with the etched ones, knowing they might need replacing someday.

• Fit the Dygma: Since this keyboard has some non-standard elements to its layout, the only caps that will fit it perfectly are the ones that come with it. Any aftermarket set will involve some amount of compromise compared to the specially-shaped set that it ships with. (No set will come with those curved ones in the thumb area; you might find ones that fit, but they will still be straight-edged rectangles.) For this particular keyboard, the best option might be the set it comes with - and the replacement sets offered on their website. A possible compromise would be to use one of the other options above, but only on the traditional alpha-numeric portion of the keyboard, using the stock caps on the thumb area.
  
  I can’t tell for sure, but it also looks like the thumb area actually uses a totally different type of switch of the low-profile variety, so it’s quite possible that aftermarket MX-compatible caps won’t fit that part of the keyboard at all. Most images I’ve seen do seem to show different switches in this area, but I’ve also seen a video that seems to show matching ones, so it’s hard to say for sure without one in-hand. Images below:
  
  
  

  
  This image is from Dygma’s website, and appears to show different switches under the caps in the thumb area.
  
  
  
  
  This image is from a review video, and appears to show matching switches under the caps in the thumb area.

I hope this is helpful if possibly a bit disappointing - please feel free to hit me (or the forum in general) with any questions you might have, and I’m sure one of us will do our best to help.

Cheers!

[wjrii]

@seapr6 welcome! @Deadeye has provided some excellent advice here.

FKCaps might not be a bad option. They have XDA and MDA available in custom shine-through, and their page for MDA even has a picture of a Defy that someone did (they left the stock thumb keys). You can also see from a few pictures of upside-down keycaps why Centered legends can be problematic. I’ve heard some slightly mixed things about the quality of the shine-through caps they do (as opposed to the opaque Cherry Dye-Sub that they do under the Yuzu brand, which seem to be universally well regarded), but they’ll likely be better than the budget shine-through “SA” you find on Amazon and elsewhere. I also admit I absolutely detest stencilized “gamer” fonts that are often done on inexpensive shine-through.

Beyond that, there are just not many options. Nuphy has their nSA, which are spherical and go all in on shine, but they are aesthetically divisive and anything but high-profile. There are also polycarbonate caps of varying profiles and price points, some of which may work okay. Then there’s some truly weird stuff that just seems like a case of “they wondered if they could, but not if they should!”

One tricky thing to keep in mind is that many keycap profiles are “sculpted,” meaning they vary their shapes by row to mimic the old curved backplates of keyboards like the IBM Model M. with a board like the Dygma, you have to be mindful that you can live with the options you get on a per-row basis. Many people in the “ergo community” (there is almost endless variety in this space, though often small-run and pricy, if not DIY) struggle with finding the caps they like, especially if they are the type who prefer accurate legends written on the caps. A profile like XDA would be “uniform” meaning rows don’t matter. Here is one SUPER cheap set of “pudding” shine through XDA, which might be a decent way to see what you like, though admittedly the “pudding” part means the base is also shine through and completely ignores your request to minimize bleed between keys, instead treating that as a feature.

Basically, yeah… most people who stay in the rabbit hole give up on shine-through, with varying degrees of reluctance. The things that most of us find desirable about the hobby just don’t seem to work great with illuminated legends, and that becomes a bit of a feedback loop with manufacturers. The gaming community has accepted the tradeoffs for the most part, often spending large amounts on boards with caps that baffle most of us, and while there is certainly a good deal of overlap in the populations themselves, being a “keyboard person” almost implicitly suggests that shine-through is a low priority. I wish the options were better though, as “keys you can see in the dark” is not a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever.

[seapr6]

Deadeye and wjrii - wow you guys, you’re very detail oriented and precise, I appreciate that, and all of your help!

I wasn’t thinking about the Cherry MX compatible switches having those cross stems, interfering with my dream of simple shine through centered legends. I’m going to have to resign myself to offset legends. Now that I’m aware of that, I’m actually loving the stock legends that will come with the Defy. They’re as large as offset will allow with tons of shine through.

if you’re wondering about why I like shine through so much, it’s not because I don’t touch type - I do, and quite well. And accurately with, with all the finger placements of a traditional typist. The reason is that I’m trying to use an M4 iPad Pro as my primary. I sometimes use the touch screen, back and forth with the keyboard. In some apps, it’s mostly touch screen with occasional stabs at a key or two. And I’m a night owl. I want to be able to immediately see what the keys are with no distracting Las Vegas lights. And I’ve never understood the point of having light around the keys. I know where the keys are, I just want to easily and quickly see what they are.

Also, I’m not a gamer at all. The last video game I played was Myst in the early 90s. Not even kidding. lol

Yesterday, I had a conversation with the robot over at Dygma. It’s a pretty impressive Chat GPT designed by Dygma - very helpful. You guys were right about the switches being different low profile chocs on the thumb clusters. 62x hot-swap sockets for Mx switches and 8x Kailh hot-swap sockets for Choc switches.

Being a newb to this hobby, and being a very heavy handed typer, I’ve decided to start off with what Dygma’s AI recommended for me - Kailh silent browns with Kailh choc browns on the thumb clusters. It said that even though there are much higher actuation force tactiles, the silent browns are good for strong typists since they have a dampener, while still being satisfying to press at 50 cN.

So I think I’ve got my launching point - silent browns with Dygma’s keycaps. I’m sure after 8 or 10 months I’ll start having fun with trying other keycaps - I’m still interested in trying something spherical, having the feeling of my fingers sinking into the keys. I know that might get challenging and weird on the Defy rows. I also know the thumb clusters will remain different, but I’m actually okay with that since I’ll be hitting those with the sides of my thumbs.

Do you guys agree with that robot, that silent browns are a good starting point for me?

Cheers,
Pete

[seapr6]

P.S. Can I just say how much I LOVE these? The font, the colors, and the sculpting is to die for. My fingers crave them. But alas… my shine through requirement and my Dygma rows. A guy can dream though, right?

(It won’t let me add the link, but if you look up DROP + MITO MT3 PULSE KEYCAP SET)

[Deadeye]

I think the silent browns will be a decent place to start, and I don’t think the AI is wrong in saying that the dampeners are good for a heavy-handed typist because they do reduce the harshness of bottoming the switch out. If you find yourself accidentally pressing letters, that might be a sign to get some heavier switches or swap-in some heavier springs.

A couple examples of heavier silent tactiles would be Invokeys Daydreamers and Lichicx Raw Silent Tactiles (“big bump” version); I think both are actually out of production, but I’ve got a set of Daydreamers I’m not using if you end up being interested in some.

Aside from the space-bars (which wouldn’t be applicable to the Dygma), I’m actually a big fan of MT3 keycaps, and they’re probably what I’d recommend to someone looking for tall, retro IBM inspired keys. Of the handful of retro spherical profiles available, they do have some of the deepest scoops up-top.

[Rob27shred]

Yeah since you have so little choice in the switches it comes with I’d say the silent brown Kailhs & the brown chocs would be your best bet to get with the board. Although there is a possibility you might not like the feel or sound of the silent browns. Them being a silent switch gives them a cushioned bottom out, but at 50g they are fairly light switch. Even more so for a self professed heavy typer who learned on a manual typewriter TBH. Then they will have a mushier feel than a non silent MX switch which might be a negative to you as well since you’re wanting to get away from membrane boards.

Nothing to really worry about though, since the Dygma has a hotswap PCB you can always replace the switches if either the MX or choc switches aren’t to your liking. Shame the Dygma does not have a barebones option as we could definitely lead you to more satisfying feeling & sounding switches, but since there is no barebones go with your stated choices. Then see how you like them. You never know you might end up liking lighter &/or silenced switches with MX boards. I never warmed up to silenced switches myself but started the hobby a very heavy handed typist that only wanted to use tactile or clicky switches. Nowadays though very light linears are my go to style of MX switch.

Anyways welcome to the hobby & site! Hope the Dygma turns out great for you & hope to see you around here in the future!

[Deadeye]

Happened to see this and thought of your post; looks like someone with a resin printer is making custom thumb-cluster caps for the Defy:

Dygma Defy Thumb Cluster Keycap Set