Do you think the limes would benefit from filming?
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Thanks for the detailed review on this frankenswitch!
I think I might go this route, but still unsure about the stock spring weight, as well as single vs multi stages. Do you have any input on this?
For background, I’ve only used tactiles throughout the hobby:
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KAM Bouquet by JWK (60g 3-stage gold-plated long springs) - my favourite, but too fatiguing
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Gateron Root Beer Float (58g 2-stage gold-plated 22mm springs) - now daily driving this almost a month
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Ajazz Kiwi (60g 2-stage 21mm stainless steel springs) - used for a year, imo best for typing long hours
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That’s an interesting question. I’m dubious about filming silent switches, since there is a possibility that the film adds to the noise. [Not tested this.]
But Lime is a wobbly switch, at least compared with Boba housings.
I have experience with a similar switch: Silent Forest stems in Cherry housings. Those housings, as you know, are not the tightest. So some TX films went into those. Overall, it worked out. They are only marginally less-wobbly than stock Cherry switches, but at least they are quiet, and sound consistent.
So properly-done films on Silent Lime might improve the consistency of their sound. If they become less wobbly, so much the better. It’s definitely worth testing. [Lubing them is way more important, though.]
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Deadeye can likely help you more with this question.
It seems you have lots of experience with strong springs. I tend to go the other direction in springs.
For example, the stock Lime could probably do okay with 60 G 14mm TX springs, almost certainly 60 G 15mm Spirit.
But if you wanted punch, some 18mm 55-58 G springs would really give them punch. Similarly, 63.5 G L ThiccThoc springs would give more power than the stock springs. But these powerful springs tend to be louder: for silent springs, I would go with 15mm Spirit springs. 63.5-68 G in the case of your Limes.
The U4 stems [if going that route] can work in Boba housings at relatively low weights of 55 - 58 G 15mm. So you could probably get away with such springs in the Lime housings. But 62 - 68 G 15mm springs will be poppier, and not obnoxiously loud.
My instinct is that you might want to go with 62 - 65 G 15mm springs either way on the Limes, as they are sufficiently poppy and easier to quiet. Huge multi-stage springs may not be ideal in a silent switch, unless they are really high-quality [hence expensive].
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All good advice / notes from HungerMechanic. I think there probably is a trade-off between pre-load punchiness and silence. That said, I think a long spring on the lighter side can still be quiet enough with oil.
With the U4-in-Lime combo, I feel like the Lime’s stock spring is plenty in-context. The bottom-out weight isn’t as heavy, but the tactile peak is enough to prevent me from making accidental presses with my clumsy fingers. There’s a tiny bit of ring to the stock Lime spring with the U4 stem, but I have to have the switch right next to my ear to hear it - it’s more quiet than a stock U4 switch.
As for the stages thing, if it makes a difference on its own, I’m not really sure what it is. I think the amount of pre-load matters a lot, and I’ve seen it said that more stages allow for more of that, other things being equal. IDK.
Longer definitely means more pre-load (other things being equal) - and that means a snappier feel compared to shorter / less pre-loaded springs of the same bottom-out weight. The Lime has a pretty long spring, so even though it bottoms-out more easily than a Boba U4, I think it also feels more lively with the same stem.
Re: filming and wobble - I’ve actually had wholly positive experiences with filming silent switches; better stability, better silence. All the films I’ve used are clear of the stem’s path if installed correctly, and will prevent top-out tick that can mar an otherwise hushed experience.
Anecdote: I built a keyboard for a friend, and had the whole thing together only to find it dissatisfying, realizing that some switches top housings were jostling on top-out - so I broke the whole thing down and filmed all the switches. Oof… but after I was done, not a chitter-chatter to be heard, and the switches felt more solid. Three years later my bud still tells me how much he likes using it - also incidentally a U4-based franken situation.
Limes (and Peaches) do have wobbly housings - though I got some V2 samples today and the ones I have seem a little better about that, plus they have 5 pins. If I were doing a build based around Lime or Peach housings of either version, I’d probably plan on filming them.
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I’m taking all of this into consideration when I’m building my next board. Thank you so much everyone!
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Hi everyone, first time posting so im sorry if I shouldnt write here. I have been looking for a silent light tactile switch. I have only really found the outemus lime v2 that fit this criteria, but people have said they feel a bit mushy. The outemu jades have gotten way better feedback but they are to heavy.
Do you guys recommend me going for the limes, or trying the jades and swapping the springs for lighter ones (45g)? Are there any other alternatives im not considering?
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IIRC people have had decent luck putting the lime stems into Jades and other Outemu housings like Gazzews or Modes. Those will all have the same dampeners, though I think the tighter housings help them feel less mushy.
Ah I see. I was thinking that it was the low weight that made the limes feel mushy. So that the mushiness is always there, just that the higher force of the jades was masking it. But maybe it has more to do with the stem and housing.
Thanks for the suggestion! I am going to buy both anyway so will definitely try to swap stems, and maybe the springs aswell since i want a light tactile
A suggestion that I keep seeing pop up in the SwitchModders discord is Gazzew U4 stems in a Grain Gold housing. From previous discussions I saw people mentioning that the bump is reduced, and it has a firmer bottom out. Outemu Cream/Jade yellow stems should be really similar to U4 stems as well.
Grain Gold seems to manufacture a bunch of switches under different brands. I have some CIY Evo S switches made by them coming in soon, just to put U4 stems into. I can report back if they’re any good.
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The mushiness is the price you pay for silencing. OUTEMU silents are very quiet, but they do have a mushy bottom-out.
You can get crisper bottom-out with Kailh silents, such as the Kailh Deep Sea Pro or the Midnight. [The Midnight is not much more tactile than an MX Brown].
But then these Kailh are not as quiet as the OUTEMU.
Any recommendation to put OUTEMU stems in Boba housings is probably a good one. The OUTEMU Lime stems are fine. But the housings are a weakness, if you ask me. They aren’t as straight as Bobas, and probably aren’t built as well.
So putting Lime stems in a Boba [especially Bobagum] housing would be great. Especially with lubed aftermarket springs of the same weight [63.5 G?]
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned so far are the OUTEMU Silent Forest stems. They are the ultimate silent light-tactile. Pretty much an Ergo Clear, but can be dialed down.
Silent Forest stems will work in Cherry housings, TTC housings, and should work especially well in OUTEMU housings like Boba/gum.
If you want them at Brown level, use a linear housing and a 60 G 14mm TX spring. Maybe 62 G for the spacebar.
You can buy these Silent Forest stems from Gazzew. You could order them along with some Boba linear housings. Or get the Boba linear housings from Boba LT / Bobagum switches. Allegedly, the purple ones are currently the quietest. At least until the refresh.
Silent Forest + Boba linear housing or similar is a much higher-quality switch than any OUTEMU budget offering. And it’s not a heavy-tactile.
OUTEMU also makes the Holy Tom switch or Silent Tom, something like that. I think it’s very similar to the Silent Lime. But it’s pretty decent. Might be a bit less mushy.
There’s also TTC Silent Bluish White. It’s a medium-tactile, and a bit less than the OUTEMU Jade. They are mushy too, but maybe crisper than the OUTEMU. It’s a very pleasant and relatively quiet switch if in a quiet keyboard. You can buy a sample pack of 4 and find out for yourself.
Alternately
If you’re going the route of taking a heavy-tactile stem like OUTEMU Silent Cream Yellow / Jade or U4 and making it less tactile, this has been done as well.
I am about to experiment with putting U4 stems in a Boba linear housing. Apparently, this works with 45 G regular springs, and 35 G 18mm springs. So this would be a much lighter U4.
For cost-efficiency, I suppose you could take some OUTEMU Silent Cream Yellow / Jade stems and put them in whatever the cheapest Boba linear housings are. Use springs around what I mentioned above. The combination of a linear housing and a lighter spring should produce something less tactile than U4 and Silent Cream Yellow.
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I’ve found Jades to not be as heavy as Boba U4s, and on par with something as Akko Cream Blues. Yes, Bobas are somewhat sharper and perhaps not as mushy, but once you get past the idea of having to bottom out to “feel” an actuation (and it happens much earlier, anyway) they are quite nice to type on. In fact, I type a bit easier on them than on Bobas, with a good sculpted profile.
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Thank you for the thorough response!
The Kailh Deep Sea Pro or the Midnight (or maybe whales), do seem interesting, however i disregarded them due to their weight. The problem is that i am developing early signs of RSI and would ideally want very light switches. Honestly the browns in my main board are almost to heavy.
The many different Frankenstein switches are interesting, but I dont want to spend to much money. Especially since I am building a dactyl keyboard and the switches will probably be unsalvageable. Also since the dactyl is quite a radical design i dont know if i will like it at all. Maybe i can try Frankenstein switches on my second dactyl, but for now i just want to try out the concept.
Ideally I would want just a spring swap and maybe a lemon => jade swap since i quite like that the lemon stem mimics the brown stem. However I dont know how much better the jade housing is. The Kailh Deep Sea Pro or the Midnight (or whales) with lighter springs are also an alternative.
If you want them at Brown level, use a linear housing and a 60 G 14mm TX spring. Maybe 62 G for the spacebar.
This has me quite intrigued. I’ve been read up on springs but got confused, especially when it came to tactile switches. When looking at whats available I’ve only seen springs with a weight of 60g or more, which made me think they were very heavy. This is mainly because I associate 45g with light switches (like browns) and 60g with heavy switches (like U4s). However I realize now that just looking at the spring weight is a gross oversimplification. I just got a bit more excited about buying aftermarket springs! Is there anything special I should think about or that you recommend? Type, weights and recommended companies? Specifically how light can i go on jades, lemons and the kailh switches?
Once again i apologize for my stupid questions
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ok, these are very good questions. Keep in mind, I’ve been in this exact same boat, making silent Browns (or something in that category).
With regard to springs, they are usually measured by bottom-out. But some measure by actuation. A traditional MX Brown spring actuates at ~35-45 G, and bottoms out around ~60 G.
So MX Brown is usually listed as using a 60 G spring, although some measures would put it at 45 G.
For comparison, MX Clear actuates at 55 G, and may bottom-out around 95 G. MX Blacks actuate at 60 G, and bottom-out at 85 G.
Again, most measures refer to the bottom-out force of the spring. So when I say “60 G,” I mean the bottom-out weight. [Although the actuation is relevant, too].
Let’s forget about money for a minute, and just think about what’s best for you.
If you are experiencing RSI, you do want something like Browns. Now, the Silent Forest stem can be built pretty light. In a linear housing, I got them working with a poppy 52 G spring, but a normal 55 G 15mm spring would be fine. This is about ~5 G lighter than a typical MX Brown.
If I were you, I would put Silent Forest stems in a Boba linear housing. The Boba linear housing is cheaper than the tactile one. Use 55 G OUTEMU springs if ordering directly from Gazzew, or get 15mm Spirit springs separately. [60 G 14mm TX would also work].
The above isn’t really ‘frankenswitching,’ because Silent Forest stems are sold with the intent of being used in different housings. They were designed for OUTEMU and Cherry housings. And Boba housings are versatile, and used with different stems. The stem and housing here, maybe even the spring, are the same ‘brand.’
The cheaper version of this, as mentioned earlier, is putting Lime stems in maybe Jade housings. Or just using the stock Lime housings. They will benefit from filming if you go that route. I caution against the cheap route here. There are some reports trickling in that some of the cheaper OUTEMU silents fail after 6 months to one year. Wouldn’t want you to go to all the trouble of building this, for it to fail. The stems would be okay, though, since they aren’t the part that fails.
You can contact Gazzew as “hbheroinbob” on Reddit. He has Silent Forest stems to sell, along with linear housings or fully-assembled linear switches. They aren’t that expensive. He sells 55 G springs, too. You could buy everything at once, and have it shipped to you.
I have built and lubed Silent Forest switches, with no prior experience. It isn’t hard. Boba housings are so good that you only need to lube the stems with 3204, and bag-lube the springs. It’s not as laborious as some other builds. With generous stem-lube and 55 G springs [especially Spirit], the switches will be surprisingly gentle. [I use 60 G].
So, let’s say Silent Forest stems in Boba linear housing, 55 G 15mm springs [e.g. Spirit], stems lubed with 3204.
What about other options? As @zlivan mentions, the feeling on bottom-out may not be as important as you imagine. You’re not supposed to bottom-out anyways. It’s the feeling on actuation that matters, and Silent Forest are pretty crisp. [So are many of the OUTEMUs, especially the yellow ones.]
So a concern about ‘mushiness’ may be exaggerated. Further, from an RSI standpoint, I think mushiness is good. I find that mushiness is easy on the fingers. Easier, moreso, than crisp switches like the Kailh.
Finally, if RSI is a chief concern, then there are even lighter switches to use. It’s too bad Aliaz is uncommon now, because it is the lightest silent tactile (alongside Gateron Silent Brown). Like, these are basically silent Gateron Brown. They are so light in tactility that I actually use 65 G 14mm springs with these, so that I can get some punch.
If you get ahold of these, they should be very gentle with 60 G 14mm springs. Building them would be easy - just replace the awful stock springs with bag-lubed springs of your choice. That’s it.
Another option in this category are TTC Silent Brown (latest version). I am not familiar with them, but people say that they are indeed silent light-tactiles. So it may be worth picking up a sample pack of 4 from AliExpress or something.
[It’s too bad that Zilent V1 is out-of-production!]
Anyway, you have some real options here. Silent Forest will work, and can be made gentle. Aliaz is even gentler, maybe too much. And TTC Silent Brown is very real.
From a cost-saving standpoint, it is still cheapest to order a tiny number of sample switches of the above-mentioned. Maybe check the “Switch Oddities” website. It will be wayyyyy cheaper than building something you don’t like.
So to answer your remaining questions, some good spring brands for silent switches are:
TX 14mm (S) in 60 or 65 G. I have tested these personally.
Spirit 15mm (M) in 55 G. Also tested.
OUTEMU 52 G. A bit poppy for a 52 G, but it works in linear housings.
[Their 55, 62, 65, and 68 G springs are all regularly used in silent U4 switches, as well.]
Be careful if buying Large (16mm) and (18mm) springs, as some of them can be noisy. But I don’t think you’ll be doing that.
How light can you go?
-55 G 15mm or 60 G 14mm with Silent Forest in a linear housing. 52 G OUTEMU will also work.
-52 G or lower in a stock Bobagum linear.
-55 G in a stock U4 Boba, although 57 G 16mm or 55 G 18mm would be more reliable.
-35 G 18mm / 45 G 15mm with a U4 stem in a linear housing.
-60 G 14mm in an Aliaz. Maybe lower.
The U4 is a larger bump than any Brown-styled switch, so it’s best to stick with Silent Forest / Lime for now.
You may also consider 30-35 G Silenced Topre. It is really easy when lubed. But that’s a lot of work and money.
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Also, Silent Lime stems in Boba linear housings should work fine. Either with stock Silent Lime springs, or aftermarket.
I would say that is the other main contender, alongside Silent Forest.
Also, do not forget to swap out any regular mouse for a vertical mouse (or a track ball).
My dad was considering going for RSI surgery a couple of years ago. I promptly swapped his mouse for a vertical mouse. Until now, he is still cured of his RSI. Since that event, I am also exclusively using vertical mice and trackballs.
Can the Kailh Deep Sea Pro Whale switches be regarded as an improved version of the Kailh Silent Browns?
Visually, they would certainly be a great match for an upcoming solder build that requires dust protection.
However, I am on the other extreme of the spectrum in terms of spring weight. I really do like heavy tactile switches with a pronounced tactile bump. So I will definitely swap out the Kailh springs for 68g Gazzew Boba springs.
Well, I don’t know if they’re the same design as the Kailh Silent Brown.
But I do know that I like them a lot better than Kailh BOX Silent Brown. The Deep Sea Pro V3 are more consistent and less mushy than what I remember of Kailh BOX Silent Brown.
BOX Silent Brown was actually pretty sub-par IMHO. The spring weight was not consistent, they weren’t as sturdy as they should be, and they didn’t feel great.
I would classify Deep Sea Pro V3 as a medium or medium-heavy tactile. They are like a silent light Panda, tactility-wise. I’m not sure about replacement springs, though, because I don’t know the type of springs they use. You know how it is with Kailh.
EDIT: I would venture that maybe Kailh Midnight Pro are a refined version of a Kailh silent Brown. The Midnight Pro aren’t that tactile, but they are somewhat crisp and clean. At least, moreso than their earlier switches. But they aren’t for fans of high-tactility.
One could add some 2-stage springs for better tactility. However, it might also increase the upward pressure which could emphasize the upstroke noise.
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