Funky Frankenswitches

With the MM switches, I’m not sure I understand the unique value of each type of plastic and how it interacts.

Things I know:

  • Nylon housings usually sound deeper and a bit more quiet
  • POM is a bit harder. Most of my POM switches have a somewhat deep but also firmer thock than Nylon
  • UHMWPE is softer and slick. Super smooth but sometimes has issues with sizing due to shrinkage
  • With POM you don’t want to mix a stem with a housing of the same material, which causes a stick-slip feel. (Do the other materials act this way?)

I don’t know much of what to expect from LY, P3 or UPE. I find it strange that the vendors don’t have any words to say about the properties of any of these materials.

Has anyone just gone crazy and bought them all to try them out?

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I personally don’t understand either. I think each of the new materials in stems or housings is meant to be a bit smoother and have slightly different sound signatures but I personally only stick with POM, Nylon, and PC. I find that having a switch that’s too smooth removes a bit of the “character”?

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Oh heck I fell down an esoteric plastic post writing rabbithole again

Yes, notably UHMWPE and its derivatives, even more-so than with POM. Sort of.

The stick is stronger, but once you’re moving it’s more soapy slick, unless you’re at an extreme angle and/or going really slow. A good example of this is the Tecsee Jadeite, used to be called Diamond. It almost feels like a light tactile because there’s that “stick” at the beginning, but then that soapy glide to a soft-ish bottom-out.

More plastics / blends, re: slip-stick

P3 is slick and contains at least a little bit of umwipe, but it’s pretty firm compared to the pure stuff. It does slip-stick a little with a pure UHMWPE top-housing, so probably will with other blends containing it.

LY seems pretty firm, maybe closer to POM in hardness, but I’ve only tried the one LY-based switch so far in Nebulas and they have Nylon housings. I swapped a Tecsee umwipe housing onto one of those, which kind of almost fits - but it’s clear the LY plastic does indeed slip-stick with UHMWPE.

I even wrote directly to Prevail to ask about LY, including a few plastic-property questions like where it might sit on the scale of amorphous to crystalline. I heard back from a staffer who seemed to dig that someone was asking, but not from anyone that could give me any info.

Ink stuff sure does it. North Pole stems are Ink material, and putting those in Ink housings is slip-stick city. Took me all of two seconds to figure out why Gateron doesn’t sell full-Ink switches.

In poking around it seems UPE might just be a shortening of UHMWPE - I don’t think I’ve specifically used any switches with “UPE” in the marketing - or if I did I’ve forgotten about it. I’d assumed it implied a more firm blend of umwipe but who knows.

Strange and not strange; I fear mystery and curiosity about this or that blend is an effective driver of sales, at least in the short term.

More waxing about that

It’s also quite possible they’re just trying stuff and seeing if people like it, and letting them figure out how to talk about it. It’s also not super easy to articulate the esoteric properties of plastics in the context of haptics and sound across language barriers.

I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but I get the impression these probably-not-special blends will stay secrets - ha, until someone puts a bunch of switch parts under a mass-spectrometer or something. Honestly though, this is part of what motivates me to write about switches - because most of the people who are good at making and selling them aren’t that great at meaningfully describing them.

I’m still getting a feel for some of these relatively new-to-switches blends, but the impression I’m getting is that relative firmness goes something like this, from soft to hard:

  • UHMWPE >> Nylon >> HPE & Ink stuff >> P3 >> POM & LY >> PME (brittle tho) >> Polycarb >> PBT
A little more detail on each as I've experienced it
  • UHMWPE: really soft. Soapy slick, but it can stick to itself. Tends to dampen the sound profile when used for stems. Maybe too soft, as in easy to damage. I squished a few stems just enough to make them bind while trying not to lose an FPS game. If you’re heavy-handed or travel with your keyboard, maybe avoid this material for stems. I’ve honestly not seen any down-side to using it for housings aside from higher cost, and I think it can sound really nice.

  • Nylon: quite soft, but differently than umwipe. Nylon is very flexible, maybe even more flexible than UHMWPE, but not nearly as easy to deform like putty or shave-away like soap. Nylon is rarely used for stems; it’s not really ideal and wears more quickly and is mostly a novelty in stems. For housings it gives that beautiful smack sound at the cost of a little grain.

  • HPE: it’s soapy slick like UHMWPE and feels similarly dense, but it’s much more firm. It’s a little flexible but holds its shape better. I like it for the sound profile; it’s a bit like Nylon’s, but a little less “dry” if that makes sense. Pretty sure this is an umwipe blend.

  • Ink stuff: pretty slick, a little soft, a bit dense, fairly flexible. Maybe in-between Nylon and HPE sound-wise. Actually does make for great stems (North Poles), but not when used with itself. Seems likely to be an umwipe blend, but who knows.

  • P3: Durock POMs, Cobalts, Epsilons, Hoshizora. I know these as glassy-smooth switches, and I do think the P3 stem has a part to play in that for all of them. So far I’m really happy with how it’s doing paired with all sorts of housing materials - except maybe UHMWPE. My favorite so far. I think this is a touch softer than POM, but also more dense. In terms of giving an on-rails feel, I think only (really well-executed) polycarb can compete. There’s at least a little umwipe in this one.

  • POM: the baseline for stems. Most stems ever, Cream housings and a few others. Slip-sticks with itself a bit. Most versions of this I’ve seen used for housings have a pretty dry, matte appearance, with some recent exceptions like the Kailh Ice Mint, with a housing that looks more like HPE; translucent and glossy.

  • PME: I don’t think I’ve seen this used for stems, but it’s a rigid, brittle plastic used by Tecsee for a few of their switch housings like the Carrot and Purple Panda. In terms of smoothness it reminds me a bit of Nylon, but isn’t nearly as flexible. One of the more dry-feeling plastics, and makes sound kind of like Nylon’s, but higher-pitched and more abrupt.

  • LY: I think this stuff is harder than POM, but I’ve only typed on it, not any other fun science. Yet. I know the least about this one - seems smooth and stuff, but also seems like it might shrink a bit in manufacturing. The Nebula switches I have are a little wobbly, and have a light grip on keycaps.

  • Polycarb: Classic top-housing material, sometimes the whole thing. For when you favor low-grain and/or transparency. Some stems are made of it, but it’s hard to work with there. When done well (and lubed) it can be glassy smooth with no grain and allow for on-rails stable switches - but even a little off and it slip-sticks or even binds. Manufacturers are getting better at making stems with it but I still consider it something of a novelty in that context because at least half of it ranges from meh to bleh. Akko’s are good.

  • PBT: I’ve not seen it used for stems, but I have seen one PBT housing switch. The housing is hard like a rock and harsh like a disappointed parent. It seems nice and smooth and makes a great housing for silents - but nobody wants to spend that much just for frankenswitch parts - not even me.

Kind of :upside_down_face: materials yes, specific product line no

I think there’s definitely something to that. The more smooth, lower-grain a switch is, the less haptic identity the travel feel has beyond simply being smooth. A handful of hypothetical perfectly-smooth switches would have at least one less key aspect to distinguish between them.


As for the MM thing as a product line

I think the biggest value for the broader market is more accessible experimentation for those that want to do that. There’s also the value for folks like me who specifically want a bunch of XYZ this without a bunch of leftover ABC that, etc.

Some folks might have fun messing around with a pack of each - I probably would if I hadn’t already collected a bazillion switches. I have, though, been wanting a place to buy both P3 stems and umwipe housings on their own - so I was pre-disposed to be stoked about it. :grin:

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North Pole housing seems to slip-sticks regardless of stem material (at least what I have around that’ll fit). Happens most often after stopping mid-stroke then start moving again. I could almost ignore it if squeaking noise wasn’t also present.

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  • With POM you don’t want to mix a stem with a housing of the same material, which causes a stick-slip feel. (Do the other materials act this way?)

Today I’ve checked out Aqua Kings and discovered both housing parts and stem are made out of PC.

A sample I had was quite smooth without any stick slip, at least anything major that would impact the feel, so I guess some plastics suffer more than others.

It did have some sort of obstacle at the start when pressing it off-center to the north side, though I don’t think it’s related to the housing material.

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I have put the UPE stems in my all UHMWPE housing Parallel Pewters and swapped out the stock springs with the 3-stage 53g ones from Wuque. Springs were bag lubed with 105 and the rails of the bottom housingswere also lubed with 105.

I tossed some 205 behind the leaf springs to cut down on potential ping. Filmed with Deskey films.

Had very little N/S stem wobble, with minimal E/W movement. These housing are made by JWK, so this is likely the reason for the nice fitment.

To me, they were extremely smooth, and “clacky”. Definitely higher pitched than the P3 stems. Didn’t encounter any sticking at all in this setup.

I have the P3 stems in some Holy Panda X housings (PC top, Nylon bottom) with the same spring swap, and those are slowly becoming my favorite linear Frankenswitches. Very smooth, snappy, and “poppy.” Springs bag lubed with 105 and bottom rails lubed with 105/205 mix. Also, filmed with Deskey films.

The stem wobble on these was very minimal as well. Pretty equal in all directions.

I absolutely love that WS is letting you buy these parts separately as I now get to make some of my “meh” switches into “yay” switches :smiling_face:

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Not a wierd combo but I had a set of NK Silk Olivia switches I never bothered to use (sounds too boring) and a set of Gateron North Pole switches that kept trying to use but never really found myself enjoying.

I first tried swapping stems only but North Pole stem was too tight for NK Silk Olivia top housing. So I swapped stems and top housings and both frankenswitches came out better than their originals:

  • North Pole stem/top + NK Silk Olivia bottom = sounded similar to original North Pole but with louder, better defined sound.
  • NK Silk Olivia stem/top + North Pole bottom = sounded muffled but fuller and somehow appealing to me.

UPDATE: File this under “sounded good in tester but sounds like shit in-use”. Like night and day difference.

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Someone on another forum is looking for advice in building a mid-bump switch that is more tactile than MX Clear.

He likes Clears, but needs it to be heavier / more tactile.

Some reccs center around putting MX Clear stem in a tactile housing, such as Boba or T1. Or using similar stems like Naevy 2.0 or Silent Sky in a tactile housing.

Are these the only options for a non-top-bump heavy tactile [other than Clickiez?] Am I missing something?

what about kailh pro purple?

Scratch that. Just got my board out with those and the bump is too close to the top to feel like a clear.

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Yes, exactly.

Pro Purple came to mind, but I always saw them as having a relatively top-mounted bump.

They were seen as Ergo Clear / Zealio V1 analogues back in the day, but that’s when there was less competition. The OUTEMU Sky (early variants) were much closer to MX Clear than Pro Purple, I think.

I basically characterize Pro Purples as top-mounted Browns these days, although I guess they are closer to Ergo Clear. I think they are like smaller versions of the Halo True stem?

I think that the modern Pro Purples are like the AKKO CS Ocean Blue / Lavender Purple and the newer Jelly Blue, as well as the Aifei Blueberry Chiffon. A medium bump at the top, p-shaped. Or Huano Banana for something stiffer.

I don’t really have any suggestions, but one thing I was marinating on was that Cherry Clears have such “sharp” tactility. You could go to a Boba or T1, but that isn’t quite an apples to apples comparison.

All of this probably depends on the user’s preference, but the rounded bump of say T1s, is quite a bit different.

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I agree. I’m actually planning to replace the Ergo Clears in one of my builds with something milder. I only like sharp tactility in light tactiles, like Meteor Orange.

I kept wanting to recommend T1 variants to the guy, but they are more top-oriented in tactility. Been thinking about the Durock Twilight, which is medium-tactile stem in a T1 housing.

It all goes to show how few mid-bump tactiles there are in the category above MX Browns.

I have been coming to that same conclusion as well. I like the Clears, but if I move to a clear-like switch with a rounded bump, I can get into a flow much nicer. Clears are quickly becoming a switch in my arsenal that I am not a 100% in love with, but I still like having around for some variation.

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how is the leaf on the ink black for the t1nk? is it suitable for tactile frankenswitching?

It’s alright - doesn’t mesh quite as well with the T1 stem but it does work. For the stems I’ve tried it with, the Ink Black leaf has made for a less strong tactile bump compared with the stem-donor switches. If there’s a tactile switch that you like but is otherwise a bit too tactile, see if it will fit in some Inks if you have them around - it might sound great. That said, I wouldn’t buy pricey switches like Inks just for frankenswitching unless you’re really set on a certain combo that includes them. (Welcome to KeebTalk!)

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So, in my recent experimentation into wading into the waters of Funky Frankenswitching, I went down the rabbit hole of Cthulhus.

Recipe:

  • Long-pole Cream linear stem
  • Milky top
  • Ink bottom
  • Spring of choice/Ink switch stem (still kind of unsure about this…)

I decided to throw away some money and order a bunch of switches to harvest. I ended up going with:

  • Kailh Burgandy Pros (for the long-pole Cream stem)
  • Gateron KS3 Milky Top Pro
  • Gateron Ink Black V2’s
  • Durock 62g 2-stage gold spring
  • Deskey Films

My initial batch, I decided to go with the 5-pin version of the Burgandy Pros, but upon taking them apart, I noticed that the stems have a flat, non-tapered bottom different than any of the other Kailh switches with their Cream stems (Red, Black, Creams), but they still seemed to fi the housings of the Gateron switches just fine. Even worked with the JWK bottoms, and Cherry tops of some BCPs I chose to make with some extras I had decided to throw into the cart.

They sounded deep and poppy, but also had definite reduced travel and on bottom out, the top of the stem did not sit flush with the top of the housing. I thought it may be due to the flat bottom on the stem, so decided to try another vendor for possible older stock of Kailh Burgundy Pro stems, but they had the 3-Pin version. I decided it wasn’t an issue as I was just going to harvest the stem.
To my surprised, when I opened the 3-pins, I noticed they did have the tapered bottom!


Kailh Burgundy Pro 5-Pin stem (Left) Burgundy Pro 3-Pin (Right)


Kailh 5-pin Burgundy Pro

Disassembled 5-pin Burgundy Pro
Burg_3Pin_1
Kailh 3-pin Burgundy Pro

I ended up making a bunch of BCPs with MX Hyperglide tops, HHHH H1 bottoms, and 3-pin Burgundy Pro stems. I tossed in some 57g TX long springs lubed in 105 and lubed the stems in 205g0, and then filmed with Deskey films. I tried them against my first batch of BCPs with the flat stems and there was a noticeable different in volume of bottom out, but they still sounded similar. The flat-bottom was just louder. The taper-bottom also had lessened travel and did not allow for the stem to sit flush with the top housing on bottom-out as well, but only to a slightly lesser degree…


Black Cherry Pies!!!

So I have since decided to order some more 3-pin Burgundy Pros and went back through and swapped out the stems in all of m y Cthulhu switches as well.

As far as the sound and feel, I really like them. I have them in my Parallel Snake which has the current config of:

  • 70A Bakeneko 60 O-Ring
  • Hotswap PCB
  • POM Plate (Hype Keyboards)
  • Moondrop Lunalight linears, lubed with 205g0 (Alphas)
  • Cthulhu (Modifiers)
  • BCP, w/Tapered stem (Spacebar)
  • Cherry clip-in stabs, lubed with XHT-BDZ on wires, 205g0 housing/stems (BS, LS, Enter)
  • Gateron long-pole stabilizer, lubed with XHT-BDZ on wires, 205g0 housing/stems (Spacebar)
  • GMK Pono Keycaps

I was discussing why the 5-pin version would have a different version to the 3-pin, and we could only come up with that it was either a whole version/generation change, or due to the fact that the 5-pin has more contact with the PCB, so having the flat-bottom stem could allow for the resonance of the bottom-out to not be dissipated as much by the PCB…

If anyone else has any more info/ideas, I’m all ears :ear::ear:

Otherwise, if anyone is looking to harvest Cream stems from other Kailh switches and wants to make sure they get the tapered version, I would order the 3-pin version of the Burgundy Pros just to be sure.

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Is this a bad time to tell you about the Gateron Cream Sodas?

Which are basically the frankenswitch you created, for around 0.75 cent per switch, with an Ink bottom, Milky top and long pole stem.

Nonetheless, a detailed and deep review of a research is always nice to read.

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LOL! I looked at those, but wasn’t a fan of the way they looked… I may pick up a handful just to give them a shot, but from what I have heard, the Gat stem doesn’t sound quite the same as the Kailh stem in this config…

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I love the way long-pole stems like Pro Burgundys sound in Ink Bottoms.


The bane of many a favorite franken recipe - revised tooling.

My guess is that your 3-pin batch comes from an older manufacturing run than your 5-pin batch; Kailh Blacks have the same thing going on with their own stems.

I’ve got a thread going dedicated to cataloging changes like this;

There’s some photos in there that show similar changes with the Kailh Black stems.

This makes me wonder if the new Burg Pro stems are the same as the new Black stems; they used to be a hair longer but it would make financial sense for them to consolidate tooling for otherwise very similar designs. I’ve got a post on my site cataloging some of the differences between Kailh stems - mostly Creams but Burgundy Pros are included - here’s the caliper measurements:

  • Kailh Black (V1), Cream Dream, Nolive (V2): ~13.31mm (I think all these use the same tooling)

  • OG Cream (V1): 13.41mm

  • Launch Cream, Cream Arc (Updated Cream V2): 13.48mm

  • Kailh Pro Burgundy (V1): 13.65mm

  • Kailh Speed Navy: 13.69mm

It’s pretty normal for long-pole switch stems to peek-out above the top housing, especially with frankenswitches thanks to housings having different tube depths.

There’s another thread here on KeebTalk about the long-pole business with some comparison photos, including the Burgundy with some others:

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Is there a reason for manufacturers to change design of a stem? is this due to them wanting to release a (probably overpriced) switch of their own mimicking the frankenswitch one?